Jeff:
Today’s topic is don’t mistake, apathy for grace. There are a couple different ways we can slice this or say this, don’t make sure you are not fathering and communicating a grace, that is just the cheap grace as Bonhoeffer called it. If you’re familiar with that phrase, the enabling grace, this concept of grace kind of means do whatever you want, however you want, whenever you want.

Now I’m cracking up because Jeremy makes the schedule of these and literally last night was the moment I feel like that this finally showed up and one of our kids and kind of had a collision and I loved it. And I was, and I was ready for it. So I kind of was smirking on the inside, but I also like, it does sting.

And it’s funny like, and Jeremy, you can unpack this, but like, so literally last night I’m putting Kinsley down, our oldest. Man, she’s the sweetest, she’s the best, she goes down great. And we kind of have this rule of like, you got to let me do the routine because I do love putting them down. And I really want you to cultivate a thankful heart, thankful spirit. And the way you show that is when I leave. Like no asks are allowed that are like the dumb asks. Of course, if you’re heard, of course, if you need something, of course something happened, whatever, but you’re not going to ask me for a water when I leave, you’re not going to do whatever.

And we just do small little corrections where basically when I leave, sometimes she’ll do that. And so what the corrections we do, that’s really helpful because you want to look for the things that are motivating to your kid.

The correction we do is…

Jeremy:
Yeah.

Jeff:
… Kinsley really cares about like her stuff, right? She has a couple of little things in her room that she plays with during quiet time, like little dolls and little things. And so every time she basically asks a question, I don’t even say anything. I just walk in. And I said, okay, I got to take something. I just basically take something out. I just say, okay, well, this has got to go for a couple of days. Then we can’t have it any more. And the minute I do that, it’s like done. It just works. But last night she… That happened. Then I took it out and then she kind of started whining a little bit. And so then I just wanted to engage with her instead of just like saying deal with it. So I went and talked to her for a minute and I think the exact phrase, I was cracking up.

I was like, what did I say? I said something like, I forget… We talked about love. Right? And we were talking about love and how, and all these things and obedience and all these things and the thing that came out of her mouth, which I just, she has never said this before was almost exactly of, if you love me, you would have, let me like, had that. Or you would have like, let me have the toy. Like she pulled that card kind of like the…

Jeremy:
Wow.

Jeff:
Or no, I think she said the most loving thing to do would have been if you didn’t take it. And I just was like, Oh, perfect teaching moment right now, right? And I was just like, no, the most loving thing I can do, Kinsley is to be your father. Right?

Jeremy:
That’s right.

Jeff:
And to be your father means to make you most. And of course, I didn’t say it, this like theological, but to make you most in the image of Jesus, right? That I believe in you more than you can even see yourself and to do that sometimes correction, sometimes discipline when there’s not obedience and certainly not getting blessed when there isn’t obedience is one of, not the only way, one of these ways that I significantly love you.

And so that was just funny. I don’t know if it computed or whatever, but I was just cracking up because it was last night and that exact phrase has never come out of any of our kids’ mouth, but it’s so kind of the distilled of this. Right? So yeah.

Jeremy:
That’s right.

Jeff:
How would you round that up and close it out with like a, how people should be thinking about this?

Jeremy:
Yeah. Well, I think this generation probably more than any that I’ve… Maybe that has ever been. Fathers are so trained to be motherly, just like overwhelmed with mercy and compassion for their kids…

Jeff:
Yeah.

Jeremy:
They have an intuition.

Jeff:
That’s what I was going to say. Even me being ready, it like stung. I was like, Oh…

Jeremy:
Yeah.

Jeff:
I almost gave it back.

Jeremy:
It resonates right?

Jeff:
Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy:
Like when they hear that, they’re like, it’s always my fault. Like, I’ve heard dads, especially like where they finally discipline their children and then they apologize to their kids. They apologize to me. Like I just broke down the other night and my kids after like the 50th time they did the same thing, I broke down and disciplined them and I’m so sorry.

Jeff:
It’s like, yeah if you were angry or something like that, but that’s a different thing. Like correcting your kid is like, don’t be sorry.

Jeremy:
I know, but I think what’s happening here is that one of the subtle lies that we’re believing is that discipline doesn’t equal love. Like what Kinsley is saying there is something that dads today, even if they know the Bible, doesn’t agree with this. They’ll say, and they believe maybe in their own heart. I think the verse that really confronts this attitude, the best is, or this belief is Hebrews 12, right? It’s so clear. It’s such an amazing passage. It says, as you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined by its father?

Jeremy:
Who’s ever heard of such a thing?

Jeff:
Yeah.

Jeremy:
Oh my goodness. If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all. Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the father, our spirits, and live forever.

Later on. He says, “No discipline is enjoyable while it’s happening. It’s painful. But afterwards, there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.”

I just want to encourage you dads. Do not mistake apathy for grace. Do not think you’re loving your kids, when you are failing to consistently train and discipline them. That is not love. That is really receiving a cultural message about what compassion and mercy and grace are. It’s not biblical grace. And so if we study the way that our father, our heavenly father treats us, he disciplines us for our own good.

And it takes a lot of love. I would say, even more love to go against those cultural intuitions that are really growing and consistently correct and discipline our children so that they can be trained. Our kids, their flesh needs to be trained. And a lot of fathers do not want to take on that mantle because they feel guilty a lot.

They feel ashamed and there’s a part of their flesh. It really does help, that it feels good for them to feel like the merciful, graceful person to their kids. And that’s the story they’re telling themselves. I’m just so full of grace. That’s why I can’t discipline my kids. And really, you’ve got to replace that word with apathy. You are so full of apathy that you will not consistently discipline your children.

That is what’s going on in so many of those cases. And again, Jeff and I are not talking about disciplining in anger, we’re talking about the consistent training of children. And the Bible is so clear about how critical this is for fathers in particular. It’s the father’s responsibility specifically to consistently train their children.

Jeff:
Yeah.

Jeremy:
And that can include correction, that can include discipline. And what he’s saying, and what’s clear by what it says in Hebrews 12 is that this discipline and this correction is not pleasant for the child.

They’re going to react. They’re going to push back. They’re going to cry. They’re going to say things like, “You don’t love me if you’re doing this.”

Jeff:
Yeah.

Jeremy:
And so you can’t believe those messages, you guys. You have to understand that a loving father will correct and discipline their children.

So that’s a perfect story, Jeff. Like, that’s exactly I feel like what a lot of us are struggling with today. And we wanted to like, really just speak the truth over you guys. Do not call what is clearly apathy, grace. Understand what real grace is. And there is a time when it’s critical for us to be gracious, for sure to our kids. But don’t use that as an excuse for apathy.